E-028 Using Scrum for Grant Teams with Diane Leonard and Lucy Morgan
Episode Summary:
### Quick Episode Summary Grant Talks Podcast [#028]
*Intro ***.42***
* Fire Away Questions with Diane Leonard and Lucy Morgan CPA***1:31***
* Building a Framework for Grant Team Happiness and Velocity ***3:33***
* The Benefits of Scrum in the Grant Profession ***6:34***
* How to Overcome Resistance to Change ***8:51***
* How to Get Started with Scrum ***11:30***
* The Innovation Mindset to Incremental Change ***14:33***
* Common Misconceptions to Implementing Scrum ***16:00***
* Real-World Examples: Scrum in Action ***20:19***
* The Last Word with Diane Leonard and Lucy Morgan ***23:00***
*Outro Audio GrantTalks Podcast with Lucy M. Morgan CPA ***24:03***
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Introducing Diane Leonard from DH Leonard Consulting & Grant Writing Services
Intro: 00:04
Welcome to the Grant Talks podcast with Lucy Morgan. Lucy is the CEO and director of MyFedTrainer.com a leading provider of grant management training and templates for federal grant recipients. This show is for grant professionals looking to gain confidence managing their grants. In an age of increasing complexity, you'll hear from leading professionals on the best practices surrounding grants, what's involved in successfully managing the grants lifecycle and how to make sure your grants are managed correctly.
Now here's your host Lucy Morgan.
Lucy Morgan: 00:42
Welcome everyone to this continued conversation with Diane Leonard, GPC and GPA approved trainer. Diane founded DH Leonard Consulting & Grant Writing Services. Diane and her team have secured more than $61.2 million in competitive grants funds from a variety of sources. In 2018, Diane became a SCPO, a Certified Scrum Product Owner, and a CSM, a Certified Scrum Master, and in 2019 Diane announced a rollout of the newest edition to the business, Agile in Nonprofits. Agile in Nonprofits is a project of DH Leonard Consulting that strives to support nonprofit organizations looking to achieve greater impact in their communities faster than they ever have before.
And I'm Lucy Morgan, your host for this session, so welcome back, Diane.
Diane Leonard: 01:30
Thanks for having me.
Fire Away Questions with Diane Leonard and Lucy Morgan CPA
Lucy Morgan: 01:31
And I didn't want to let you get away without expanding on the topic of how Scrum can transform an organization's approach to team dynamics and performance. Let's get deeper into some trends around organizational development and grant recipients. Now, first of all, let's get to know you a little better with a couple of fire away questions. I understand that you are a big fan of strong coffee.
Diane Leonard: 01:53
Any coffee. Not even just strong coffee. Any coffee.
Lucy Morgan: 01:57
Any coffee. Well, you probably have a favorite. Do you have a favorite type of coffee or a favorite coffee spot, and why?
Diane Leonard: 02:04
So, no. I'm not particular necessarily about the brand or the way it was roasted or ground. No. But really the favorite spot. So my favorite spot is actually anywhere along the Saint Lawrence River. So that's where we're based in the Thousand Islands and so a cup of coffee iced or hot anywhere where I can see my beloved Saint Lawrence River, that's my happy spot.
Lucy Morgan: 02:27
All right. So it doesn't have to involve the five bucks or Starbucks as they're something's called. You probably have a much better view of the Saint Lawrence River. And I see that travel's part of your life now. Do you have a favorite kinda out of town place that you like to eat or a type of food that you like to eat when you do travel?
Diane Leonard: 02:45
No. I really like to think about where am I and what might be different than what I can get in far, far upstate New York. We're a very touristy town so not all our restaurants are open year-round. So I like to look at what's different than what I can get at home or what's the region known for, and it's one of my favorite questions to ask Uber and Lyft drivers, right, there's TripAdvisor, and it'll point me in the right direction locally for what's fantastic, but I like to hear from folks that I meet in the communities too to say what's your favorite restaurant and why and then get creative.
Lucy Morgan: 03:16
I was doing a training in upstate New York right up on the Canadian border, and the food that I had never encountered there, never heard of before, was called poutine.
Diane Leonard: 03:26
Poutine.
Lucy Morgan: 03:27
Poutine. Yeah. It seemed like a heart attack waiting to happen, but...and I'll put a picture of that out when we get this issue out as well, but it is fun to just have some of those regional flavors in different parts of the country.
Building a Framework for Grant Team Happiness and Velocity
Lucy Morgan: 03:33
Well, Diane, in our last section, we talked about your presentation at the GPA National Conference. Grant Writing Isn't a Solo Sport - How to Increase Grant Team Happiness & Velocity. What are some of the ways that taking a team approach is changing grant writing and grant management?
And I'm sure there are some people out there listening, that need to make some changes in how they're currently operated and maybe they've heard about Scrum or Lean or Agile. What advice would you give to someone who may feel a bit overwhelmed by learning these new concepts, and what can feel like a whole new language of organizational development?
Diane Leonard: 04:14
Sure. And indeed. Overwhelming is definitely...well, it could happen. But I think that when you look at implementing a new system...if we're thinking about maybe implementing a new donor's offer, it's usually an all or nothing. You're going to abandon the old process and put in new software. Implementing Scrum isn't that way. You can take it in bite-size pieces and slowly roll it out in your organization over a period of time.
So, what I usually recommend is when someone's getting started, and they're interested in Scrum, say, "Okay, well, how do you like to learn?" So, if you love audiobooks, you may want to listen to Dr. Sutherland's book. Maybe you like to just read a little bit and then watch a webinar. Okay, so at scrumguides.org, you can download for free...it's a 19 page PDF. It's the entire framework.
So you can go learn on your own and think about how you might digest it. Maybe you go take one of our free webinars on Agile in Nonprofits, right. And I think I mentioned to you before that what great place to start is by thinking about something small like a daily Scrum.
So get your team together or maybe the first point to the folks that will be on your team. Maybe a little self voluntold type things. But bring them together and start to talk about your work every day for 15 minutes. Maybe at the beginning of the day, maybe at the end. It depends on your organization and culture.
But think about bit size small things out of the new framework that makes sense for the way you currently do work and don't feel too overwhelming. Start small, and the change will come.
Lucy Morgan: 05:47
And what's really nice about this framework is that you don't have to commit to, you know, jumping off the cliff like you would with say a software implementation. My hope is that that makes it a little less scary for organizations to start to tackle that and for people to get their feet wet, right, go in that shallow end of the pool before they have to, you know, get further in for some bigger results.
Diane Leonard: 06:08
Yeah, and a great analogy is thinking about if you're into martial arts, right. And so as you get started, and you work your way towards...maybe eventually your goal is to be a black belt, right, but you've got a long process. You're still engaged in that particular art, but you're working your way ultimately towards the goal. Agile and Scrum have the same idea. You're always on this journey. It's never quite done. So, you've got to start somewhere, right.
The Benefits of Scrum in the Grant Profession
Lucy Morgan: 06:34
What would you say to people listening today who may have heard about Scrum but aren't really sure what that means to them? Again, it's part of learning that terminology, but also what are some of the benefits that they might see at least initially?
Diane Leonard: 06:47
Sure. So well, the first time I heard of Scrum, I was like, "What? What is that?" Again, so Scrum not being an acronym; that helps because a lot of grant professionals, we're used to all our work being in acronyms. So I said, "Okay, all right. Not an acronym. It's not that we're talking about rugby." That's where the term originates from for this particular framework, but we're not actually going to play rugby.
So what does it mean to them? It means that you could do your work in a different way, we theorize and have data and case studies to show a better way that still enables you to use your skills to the best of your ability. It actually probably helps enhance the way that your skills and knowledge are used and is going to create a better end result.
Usually, we say end product if we're talking about for-profits, but we're nonprofits. We're impacting people's lives; we're changing communities. So, what it really means to them is how are they going to create change in their community, right, that wonderful hashtag, #grantswork, that we're all passionate about. We're going to get there faster. Yay, right?
Lucy Morgan: 07:45
I often think about it almost...sometimes you don't know what you need because you just never thought of it in that framework before. Last year our kids for Christmas bought us our first Roomba, a vacuuming robot. Now we have always had hairy, shedding dogs, and this was no different, but I had to...you know, I first thought, "Well, what do I need this for? And it doesn't vacuum like I vacuum. It vacuums differently, but am I getting better results consistently with less effort?" Absolutely. You know, I would not be without my Roomba now. But I had to suspend how I'd always done things for long enough to try something new.
Diane Leonard: 08:24
Yeah, and I love that story. Having a little puppy, he doesn't shed, but I still feel I need a Roomba in my life. I hope my family's listening and maybe I get a Roomba for Christmas. But I think one of the biggest things that we hear is about, "Well, how can I have help with change management?" It's not actually about change management. It's about resistance management and resistance to change, right.
How to Overcome Resistance to Change
Lucy Morgan: 08:51
That's so true. That really is what it's about is overcoming people's resistance to change. I think the biggest question I get as I go out and train all the time is how do I get, fill in the blank, to do something that they don't want to do or they don't understand it's important or whatever the case may be. But it's always really about people and relationships more than it is the sets of rules. It's getting people to communicate better and actually stop resisting the fact that they've always done it a certain way when things are...we're in an environment that's changing.
What advice would you give someone who's currently writing grants by themselves or working as part of that nonprofit, and they feel isolated from the rest of the team to maybe start moving forward in something like a Scrum concept?
Diane Leonard: 09:38
Sure. So in one of our recent classes, what we do is we...the teams get created by participants, and one of the team names resonates for me with this question. They named themselves the Silo Busters. I'm like, "Well, that is perfect for some of our nonprofit work." Because grant professionals, there's usually one in an organization. Maybe you're in a really big organization, so there's a few, but often it is so low.
And so when we think about the silos of our work in particular with the lens of grants, the T shaped idea for team members is really important. So yes. You are the grant professional. And then you have your finance colleague, and you have the program director, right. You have very specific skillsets and backgrounds in your organization. But those individuals are a part of your grant team and can help, right.
So the idea that they can stretch out their arms, and in a team situation lend a hand, help you gather more information, help you analyze data, give you a critical edit.
And so if you think about feeling isolated, it might be an organizational culture thing. And your colleagues might never want to call themselves a grant team. They might really resist the idea of being a Scrum team, but if you think about drawing them in and talking about the fact that you will potentially raise more money for the organization if they can engage a little bit...all right, I'm not above bribery. We can...it could be coffee; it could be Girl Scout cookies. Whatever it is, right.
But if you make the end result, the fact that you will raise more funds, maybe get fewer rejections, help them understand the way that it'll improve your work and then maybe as a result now you can help with theirs, right, I think that that can be really helpful in engaging folks the first time in the conversation.
How to Get Started with Scrum
Lucy Morgan: 11:30
So let's walk through the process of getting started with Scrum so our audience can feel more comfortable with what happens once you decide to move forward with a solution like this. What happens when someone says, "I know we need to change how we're doing things, so tell me more about Scrum."
Diane Leonard: 11:46
Sure. So, if we're thinking about implementing Scrum, if we're thinking about the framework, where is an organization going to start? So it's a three-five-three is what we talk about. It's a very basic rulebook. And so, when an organization decides that they want to move forward with Scrum, they might think about the three roles. So what does their team look like?
And the three roles, you've got a product owner, you've got a Scrum master, and you have development team members. Well, when you get started, it might just be about thinking about who are the team members. Worry about the rest of the roles later.
I mentioned earlier that there are five events. And so, what's the best event to start with? So you need to have all five events in place to get started? No. You can start with just one, and that daily Scrum is a great place to get started. Those artifacts? We'll worry about those later once the daily Scrum with your team is in place, and everybody's happy.
Lucy Morgan: 12:46
So again, sometimes we have the people that they just want to start a little bit, just put that toe in the water and see what the temperature is. And then you have the big picture people. They want to know, "Okay. We're going to drive through this, and we're going to get all this stuff implemented." If you have that big picture person, what would be a realistic timeframe of how long it would take to implement some of these types of changes?
Diane Leonard: 13:08
Sure. It's whatever takes first in terms of learning and feeling comfortable with the language. But when an organization decides that they're ready for an Agile transformation, the time is now. It's not about, "Oh, it's going to take us six months to achieve X goal." We can implement Scrum right now.
And what happens is you...first in your sprint...so it's a time box, period of time that you're measuring, right. So you see what happens and what your team's velocity is. That gives you a base to understand your building metrics. We are grant professionals. We love metrics, right. So it makes a lot of sense.
So you find out what your first baseline of metrics is. And then, in your next sprint period, you see if you achieve that same level of velocity or something more. And you start to create a rolling average of velocity.
And so as you're implementing, right, did you have everything perfect that first sprint? No. You're learning; you're on this journey sort of back to our martial arts idea. And so, you will forever be on your Agile journey, but you will quickly start to see a velocity increase.
You'll quickly start to see changes in your team environment. You just have to start. I don't know how... Right? It's like when you're at the running race...we'll go back to my running. And you're like, "Okay. I'm not quite ready, and I'd like another minute to stretch." We'd always like to take more time to prepare, but when the race organizer hits the button, everybody's going, right. You've just got to start.
The Innovation Mindset to Incremental Change
Lucy Morgan: 14:33
And I feel almost like this is a little bit of a trick question because in some senses, what I'm asking is when is a continuous improvement over. It never really is, right. You know, continuous improvement, by its very nature, is continuous. That's why they call it continuous improvement. And sometimes we have, in our minds, when we are thinking about something like running, it's, "I'm running the marathon to the finish line and then I'm done. Then I can go do whatever." And this whole concept is really about incremental change.
Diane Leonard: 15:03
Absolutely. That's so brilliant to see it that way, right? But it makes sense. You've got the Lean background too. And to help nonprofits understand that it's a continuous process. I think the biggest thing that maybe holds folks up is if you think about, "Well, there's a plan. There's the three to the five-year strategic plan, and we're focused on these time-boxed plans that we have."
The idea that plans don't always go as we thought and the implementation of them sometimes shift, so we're on a continuous journey to be agile, to use the Scrum framework to create the impact faster. What it should do, though, is also help folks understand that the plan is there to guide...the plan sometimes shift because something changed in your community or with your target audience or a different funder requirement shifted. I don't know. Maybe an OMB requirement came up in grant management, right. Something shifted. We've got to adapt and maybe modify the plan a bit.
Common Misconceptions to Implementing Scrum
Lucy Morgan: 16:00
So what do you think is one of the main misconceptions that grant recipients have about implementing something like Scrum?
Diane Leonard: 16:07
Oh, probably that it's only for software, and it makes no sense for them. There we go. How easy was that? Because folks are like...
Lucy Morgan: 16:12
That's a big one.
Diane Leonard: 16:13
Right? Isn't that only for software, or isn't that only for hardware, or isn't that only for big nonprofits? I'm a tiny nonprofit. I only have five people. That's perfect. Your organization is a Scrum team. There's no argument about who's on or off the team.
I think...so the biggest misconception is regardless of organizational size, could this work here? Like, "Oh, no. it couldn't work here." And there's a list of reasons that they have. But the answer is it can work anywhere: any organization size, any nonprofit focus, any mission. It's a framework that gets adapted into your organization. The only reason it won't work is if your organization isn't being honest about their willingness to change.
Lucy Morgan: 16:57
Good point. And I found that many of us, it can be hard to get everyone on board, to kick something like this off. Even though you believe that this is going to give you the results. So, let's talk to the folks listening who might be working in a nonprofit, and they already feel, "Oh my gosh. I'm so stretched. I already have this big to-do list." What is the first small step that they could take to know when they know that the time has come for a different approach? What would be your first small let's call it a call to action.
Diane Leonard: 17:25
Sure. So a colleague of mine, Rachel Bearbower, runs an organization called Small Shop Strategies, and she's got this brilliant piece of paper she handed out at a conference earlier this year, and at the top, it says, "All the things."
And so for nonprofit professionals, grants or not, that feel like they have the monstrous to-do list, right, all the things, go ahead. Write them all down. Whether you use a piece of paper that looks like Rachel's or not, the first step, do it. Write down all the things. You just created a backlog for your team. You're not going to commit to all the things in a short period of time.
So then look at your list of all the things, pick a period of time. One to four weeks. How much are you going to do in that period of time? And make that commitment to yourself to do those things. Not just to-do list but like bigger picture goals and ideas.
And then start to keep track of how you're doing. How many of those things do you get done in that two week period of time, right? How else can you engage others? You can start to model it on your own before you ever engage a team. It's best. You really need the team, but you can start to think about it in your own work first just to kind of practice some of the ideas before you share with colleagues if you're nervous about what their reaction would be.
Lucy Morgan: 18:41
Okay. I'm going to go and download that list with all the things and start writing them in because...and one of the things I struggle with and I bet you I'm not the only person out there is I always think I can get more done in less time than I actually can. So some of that...I think there are some realistic expectations that sometimes need to get tweaked in that as well, and I love that you have that accountability built into not only say really how long should this take but then go circle back and say, "And it really took this amount of time." So to help me now frame my expectations more grounded in reality.
Diane Leonard: 19:16
Well, and I think...and part of why we all face that, right...I look at my list. I am such an overachiever. I think I can do all the things right. No, no, no. Can't do it. But it's because we as humans are terrible at estimating in time. Absolutely terrible.
So one of my favorite exercises when I'm teaching the Scrum framework, and it works really well with grant professionals...we use...we talk about grant applications, but we teach about estimating. Estimating using the Fibonacci sequence is not a formal part of the Scrum framework. It's a pattern that many teams use to succeed. But you can do affinity estimating. So more like T-shirt size style, right. Small, medium, extra-large, or use the Fibonacci sequence, but that estimating can actually really helpful when you're looking at your to-do list instead of thinking in time and how long it will take.
How is this in size compared to this to-do item? And think about it that way instead because, yeah, we're just never as humans going to overcome our inability to estimate accurately in time.
Real-World Examples: Scrum in Action
Lucy Morgan: 20:19
Do you have any results that you'd like to share with us? So, people are thinking about teams and what this is going to accomplish for them. Can you give us some examples of some of the results in real life, real-world examples that you've seen happen as a result of Scrum?
Diane Leonard: 20:32
Sure. So we saw a fantastic organization in New York City. Fantastic group. Really high functioning. Good grant strategy. But not great. Because they didn't embrace the team idea enough, and they were a little too siloed in their work. And as a result of following our guidance with a grant team and following the Scrum framework, we do the Scrum work for them. They don't necessarily understand and implement it in their whole organization, but...let's see. They're more than $5 million into their yay; this is a fantastic stage of life because all of a sudden, they were operating in a place that was much more competitive with our government grants. So that's one really great story. And therefore they're changing the lives of more people as a result, right.
Look at our own team as an example. So, when we think about what happens when we've got big applications as grant professionals, things get stressful, right. And again, we don't like to have heroics. We want everybody to have their time off in the evening or on the weekend. But so what we could pay attention to is team happiness and look back with the data we had from using Scrum and see that, "Geez, you know. When it's CFA season in New York, oh, team happiness is at risk."
So what can we do proactively? How can we support everyone? Okay. Should we send out Starbucks gift cards? So how does everybody feel about coffee? Should we do something culturally in the organization to kind of shift things? Yeah, we've got little yellow dingy bells with smiley faces on them so that every time something great happens, any time during the year, those little bells are ringing all around the country, right?
Do little things to try and shift the organization because you've got some data that you can act on, right. So instead of it being just a theory, we tested the hypothesis against the data.
So those are just two really quick examples. I could go on all day, but I don't think we've got that much time.
Lucy Morgan: 22:29
And I love that you bring up this concept of "What can I do?" I first was introduced to that concept in... some folks might've read the "Rich Dad Poor Dad" series with Robert Kiyosaki, and I've used that ever since whenever I think I can't do something that your brain just stops. It's opening up to "What can I do?" Maybe it's a little thing; maybe it's a big thing. Opens up, then all those creative juices to start the flow. I love that great approach, and I hope to run into some of those little, yellow smiley faces dinging across America.
The Last Word with Diane Leonard and Lucy Morgan:
Lucy Morgan: 23:00
Well, I want to thank you again, Diane, and I want to give you an opportunity for the last word. Is there anything I should've asked but didn't?
Diane Leonard: 23:08
Well, you asked fantastic questions, and it's so fun to get to talk Scrum with someone that's got a Lean and Agile background, right. And I think it's more just saying, "Please, help people continue to think about it, right." Let's continue to encourage folks to think about continuous improvement and to ask questions, right. I love to answer questions, not just about grants, about Scrum. I'll even buy the coffee for folks to come to talk about Scrum. How backward?
Lucy Morgan: 23:34
So you are more than grants?
Diane Leonard: 23:35
I'm more than grants.
Lucy Morgan: 23:37
Well, if someone would like to find out more about you and DH Leonard Consulting & Grant Writing Services, how should they get in touch with you?
Diane Leonard: 23:44
Yeah, so they can go to our main website, dhleonardconsulting.com, or if their interest is really in Agile and Scrum, they can go to agileinnonprofits.com and reach out that way.
Lucy Morgan: 23:52
Thank you so much for participating in the "Grant Talks" podcast. Listeners, you can find all of the episodes at granttalks.com.
Thanks for listening.
Outro Audio GrantTalks Podcast with Lucy M. Morgan CPA
24:03
To learn more about how MyFedTrainer.com makes grant management more manageable, visit MyFedTrainer.com. That's MyFedTrainere.com. You'll find all the Grant Talks episodes at GrantTalks.com. That's GrantTalks.com.
More About Diane Leonard:
Diane H. Leonard, GPC, LSPO, LSM, is a Grant Professional Certified (GPC) and Approved Trainer of the Grant Professionals Association. Diane is also a Licensed Scrum Master and Licensed Scrum Product Owner.
Since 2006, Diane and her team have secured more than $64 million dollars in competitive grant awards for the clients of DH Leonard Consulting & Grant Writing Services. She is an active member of the Grant Professionals Association.
When not working with her team on grant applications for clients, Diane can be found in the 1000 Islands, out for a run, or drinking a strong cup of coffee.
More About Lucy Morgan:
Lucy M. Morgan is a CPA, MBA, GPA approved trainer, speaker, and author of 3 books including “Decoding Grant Management-The Ultimate Success Guide to the Federal Grant Regulations in 2 CFR Part 200.” As a leading authority on federal grant management for nonprofits, institutions of higher education and state, local and tribal governments she has written over 250 articles on grant management topics featured in LinkedIn, various publications, and on the MyFedTrainer.com blog.
She is a sought-after presenter at national conferences sponsored by organizations such as the Grant Professional Association (GPA), National Grant Management Association (NGMA) and American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA).
Lucy is also a highly regarded trainer whose techniques and teaching style come from real-world experience. Having faced many of the same challenges her audiences have endured, Lucy understands that what looks good on paper may not always work in the real world. Because she has been there, she provides people of all professional backgrounds with practical tools to advance their careers and make a bigger difference in the world. She can be reached at [email protected].
>>Hear more about Lucy's story in Episode #004
More Resources for Grant Professionals
Thanks for checking out the Grant Talks podcast!
In this episode of Grant Talks, we talked about a subject that you may want to know more about:
- The various roles and responsibilities of grant professionals
So...as promised I want to share some resources that may help you on YOUR grant journey.
If you are a grant manager, do you ever feel at a loss to describe to your boss and others what grant management is all about?
That’s why I put together this simple infographic on what grant managers do that you can download and share.
I know Grant Managers wear many hats…
And sometimes have to “toot our own horns” just a little bit about the important role we play in keeping our organization out of trouble so the grant funds keep flowing. 😊
I hope this little Infographic will keep you on the journey to more federal grants and better grant management.
This Infographic walks you through nine key areas that are critical to good grant management.
Here's what’s included:
- What crucial roles grant manager fulfill in the grant management lifecycle
- Best practices for laying out the grant management function at your organization and more…
These resources are designed for grant managers, just like you, and I hope that you will find them valuable on your grant journey.
Click here to download and share
P.S. If you’d like to learn more about being a grant manager, check out my article at https://blog.myfedtrainer.com/seven-ways-to-improve-grant-management-part-i/
