E-026 More Power of Grant Logic Models with Julie Assel and Lucy Morgan
Episode Summary:
### Quick Episode Summary Grant Talks Podcast [#026]
*Intro ***.42***
* Fire Away Questions with Julie Assel and Lucy Morgan CPA***1:30***
* Getting Started with Logic Models***3:20***
* The Kellogg Foundation Logic Model***5:21***
* Engaging Others in the Logic Model Process***6:32***
* How to Implement a Logic Model***8:41***
* Best Practices: Implementation Timeframes for Logic Models***10:51***
* Common Misconceptions About Logic Models***12:38***
* Spotlight: Real-life Results with Logic Models***16:32***
* The Last Word with Julie Assel and Lucy Morgan CPA ***18:46***
*Outro Audio GrantTalks Podcast with Lucy M. Morgan CPA ***20:22***
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Introducing Julie Assel from Assel Grant Services
Intro: 00:04
Welcome to the Grant Talks podcast with Lucy Morgan. Lucy is the CEO and director of MyFedTrainer.com a leading provider of grant management training and templates for federal grant recipients. This show is for grant professionals looking to gain confidence managing their grants. In an age of increasing complexity, you'll hear from leading professionals on the best practices surrounding grants, what's involved in successfully managing the grants lifecycle and how to make sure your grants are managed correctly. Now here's your host Lucy Morgan.
Lucy Morgan: 00:42
Welcome, everyone, to this continued conversation with Julie Assel, GPC. Julie Assel is the President and the CEO of Assel Grants Services and the President of the Grant Professional Certification Institute, also known as the GPCI. She is the President of the Board of Directors, and she has written awarded grants totaling more than $156 million since 2003 from both federal and foundation funders for school districts, universities, hospitals, and nonprofit organizations. And I'm Lucy Morgan, the host for this session.
Welcome back, Julie. I did not want to let you get away without expanding on this topic of how the effective use of logic models can transform the way your organization tests assumptions, engages stakeholders, and I love this, speaks truth to power at any stage of the grants' life cycle.
Fire Away Questions with Julie Assel and Lucy Morgan CPA
Lucy Morgan: 01:30
First of all, let's get to know you a little better with a couple of fire-away questions. I saw you were a past facilitator for the GPA consultants' Special Interest Group, also known as the SIG, what is the one thing that surprised you the most about working with the SIG?
Julie Assel: 01:46
One of the things I love about Special Interest Groups is the fact that everyone is so willing to share their expertise. I have found grant professionals to be so willing to be helpful in our world, in the nonprofit world, talking about dog-eat-dog, kind of like everybody is fighting for funding, and yet grant professionals are so open about how can we all do this better? And in Special Interest Group, you get somebody and all that expertise. Even in a consultant SIG, they're sharing their expertise, and I love it.
Lucy Morgan: 02:16
Well, since we're in Washington, D.C., for this conference, is there a special spot you've discovered that you would like to share with our listeners to check out while they're in D.C.?
Julie Assel: 02:25
So, my husband and I went to the National Mall and obviously the National History Museum. Many people go to it. I personally am interested in viruses and outbreaks and things like that, and they had a special exhibit there that my husband and I went to visit. And you kind of learn about the progression of things. It kind of fits with our logic model theme, but you'll learn how things transfer from place to place. It's my personal fascination.
Lucy Morgan: 02:50
It's funny. I don't have the same personal fascination, but I do have an item on my bucket list that you might relate to. I understand that the National Institutes of Health do a simulation for the zombie apocalypse.
Julie Assel: 03:02
Really?
Lucy Morgan: 03:03
Yes. And on my bucket list is one day is to get to...I'm not that into zombies, but I just think it would be a really cool thing to attend, to be part of the zombie apocalypse simulation with National Institutes of Health. Now, I hope that's not an urban myth, but that's something I've always thought would be really fun to do.
Getting Started with Logic Models
Lucy Morgan: 03:20
Well, Julie, in our last section, we talked about your presentation at the GPA National Conference, Bring Your Logic Model to Life. It's more than just a required attachment and how the logic model is a very powerful tool for grant recipients. What advice would you give someone living in the real world who may feel a bit overwhelmed by balancing both the portfolio of projects they've been doing for years and years and they may or may not have built solid logic models into those projects?
Julie Assel: 03:49
It's a very common question. As a consultant, we have a lot of organizations who come to us and say, "Hey, we need you to write this," and when we start taking a look at previous grants that they've written or we start sitting down with their staff, you know, these programs that they've been implementing for years, we get into them, and we're like, "Hmm, this doesn't really actually line up like the logic doesn't make sense."
So, for many grant professionals, they know this. They've been writing, and they learn, like, the process of logic models attending our sessions, and they say, "Oh, my goodness, that's why there's a hole. That's why I've been having difficulty writing this for so many years. So what do I do? How do I tackle this?" Especially if you're balancing lots of different projects, pick one and say, "This month, I'm going to focus in on working with this program person," or pick a column. You know, take it apart, just like we do an RFP, right?
Pick one section of a grant and focus in on that, and just take it apart. And then, once you have the whole thing or the pieces that actually make logical sense, you have the opportunity to then talk to others to say, "Hey, I'm missing this. Can you help me out? Is there research behind why you do this? What's the evidence that makes you select this activity instead of that activity? Why are you choosing to evaluate this in this way as a survey instead of as a test?" And you can start asking those questions in a gentle way.
The Kellogg Foundation Logic Model
Lucy Morgan: 05:21
What would you say to some people listening today who maybe they've heard of logic models, and it's not that we're looking for holes in the logic there and even there yet, right? They're not really sure what a logic model means to them or how they can help others improve their logic models. What would be kind of a first step there?
Julie Assel: 05:38
What I would tell you is there's a really great format that actually is the simplest version that I was talking about that the Kellogg Foundation has out on their website. That if you go through and you take a current grant that you're writing, and you take a look at those, and you just start plugging them in at those columns that the Kellogg logic model has, and then, as you get through that, see how many boxes you can fill in and give yourself a start there. And then once you see, "Okay, can I fill them all in? Do they make sense to me going from left to right, going up to down, or are there things that maybe I just don't understand?" And then from there, start talking to your program people, your executive leadership, that kind of thing.
Lucy Morgan: 06:27
That's great advice. And we'll find that Link and put that out on the transcript as well.
Julie Assel: 06:31
Great.
Engaging Others in the Logic Model Process
Lucy Morgan: 06:32
What advice would you give someone who's currently writing grants, and they're all by themselves, or they're working as part of a nonprofit, and maybe they feel isolated from the rest of the grant team? Maybe there's some siloed behavior there, and they're struggling with how logic models could help them engage people both inside and outside their organization.
Julie Assel: 06:51
That's a really good question. Because, as I've said before, I think that a full team is a really great way to approach a logic model, but sometimes people don't have that, you know, best practice and theref...you know, "Can't you just write it?" It's an opportunity to, again, as a visual representation, to say, "Hey, I'm missing this piece. Can you fill this in for me?" you know. On the other hand, being able to talk to your executive leadership about the fact that, "Can you feel this in and how this fits with our strategic plan?" And breaking it apart in a non-threatening way is really important for a lot of people because if you come to them and say, "Your program makes no logical sense," you're probably going to get some pushback.
And for some people, if they're feeling isolated from the rest of their grant team, both with grant management versus grant planning, bringing them all together and say, "Let's create this logic model together," and some people are like, "Oh, no. That's your thing. You know, don't worry about it." Being able to provide them a variation that might resonate more with them, especially if you're talking about the proposal stage versus the management stage, perhaps what you really start out by doing is saying, "Let's talk about the management stage. Can you help me understand what you're doing on the management side so that my proposals can be even stronger and make your management process easier?"
Lucy Morgan: 08:13
And in my presentation today, one of the things that I touched on was one of the greatest reasons behind getting everybody, both post, and pre-award, involved in the early planning stages is to get that ownership all the way through. You know, if people come on board three-quarters of the way through the process, they don't feel the same ownership, and they're more likely to just sit and, you know, lob hand grenades at the project rather than actually be helpful.
Julie Assel: 08:39
Absolutely.
How to Implement a Logic Model
Lucy Morgan: 08:41
That was some great advice. Well, let's switch gears a little bit. And, let's walk through the process for getting started with a logic model so that our audience could feel more comfortable with what happens once you decide that you're going to move forward, you're going to make sure that the logic makes sense, and you're going to speak more truth through your logic models. What happens when someone says, "I know we need to change how we're doing things." So tell me more about how to implement a logic model.
Julie Assel: 09:07
Absolutely. So, for people who are taking a fresh look at their program, one of the things that we focus a lot on with our clients is to be able to say, "How do you know this?" So if I'm going to implement a particular program activity and somebody says, "Okay, well, how do you know that this is a good activity? How do you know that that activity fits with your need?" And you start kind of working backward to say, "Okay, we're doing this activity, well, how does that help the problem?"
And if you gather up evidence that says, "This activity is good for this need," then the second half of it, kind of flipping to the other side, but still kind of working at that main center column of the activity, you say, "What has been shown to be a good measurement of this activity? Is there an evidence-based tool? Should you be doing a survey? Should you be doing a knowledge-based assessment? Is anybody out there publishing around this topic?" And it's so much easier to defend your logic if somebody has written about it.
And the reality is in a lot of areas we work in, in nonprofit, there's just nothing published out there, and that makes it difficult. But I've also worked with a lot of organizations that until we get down this road, they didn't realize where their knowledge...they're the experts in the content. They didn't realize that we actually needed that information, and being able to go down this road allows that kind of honest conversation.
Best Practices: Implementation Timeframes for Logic Models
Lucy Morgan: 10:51
So, let's put it into some timeframes and context. How long do you typically invest in implementing these types of models? Is that something that you have maybe an average just so people have realistic expectations about the process?
Julie Assel: 11:03
Absolutely. So it kind of depends on who else is involved in the process. So one of the most fun experiences I ever had with a logic model, and for some of you I understand that's a real oxymoron for you, fun and logic models, but one of the most fun I ever had was I was at a university, and we were planning for a federal grant, multimillion-dollar, multi-year federal grant. And we were in a classroom with a whiteboard, and I put up a logic model, and I said, "Okay, here's what we're going to do." And we started just stepping through each of the activities and the research behind it like I was discussing before.
And literally, in three hours, one afternoon, we sketched out the entire project, in three hours, on this logic model. I could leave that meeting, and I could write huge chunks of the grant by having that planning logic model done. It was amazing. And then, when I do my post-award meeting, right, so, "You've got the grant," everybody's like, "Yaaay. Oh my gosh, now we have to implement this multi-year, multi-million-dollar grant, we pulled out the logic model. And part of our post-award meeting with the team was to bring this out. You have the simple explanation, and you walk everyone through it. That took us 30 minutes, and suddenly, they didn't have to read 65 pages of material that I had to create for the federal grant, 30 minutes.
Lucy Morgan: 12:34
I would have loved to be in one of those meetings. That just sounds like it was a blast.
Julie Assel: 12:38
It was.
Common Misconceptions About Logic Models
Lucy Morgan: 12:38
What do you think are some of the main misconceptions that grant recipients have about using logic models?
Julie Assel: 12:45
If you write a logic model for a proposal, you never look at it again. So, especially if you're talking about what the grant recipients have is, they don't ever do the second half of it. They never do the formative assessment. They never do the evaluation aspect of it and be able to say, "Okay, these are our outcomes. This is who is actually going to gather this data. This is what tool they're going to use. This is the frequency that they're going to do it." And in the end, then when you go to write the report, it's all right there.
But I've been unfortunately involved in many projects in which the person I worked with from the program team when we planned the grant no longer works for the agency when we went to implement the grant. But by having those high-quality logic models, they understood where we were coming from. And, if necessary, that person was able to say to me, "We don't use that assessment anymore," and I was able to address it much more quickly.
Lucy Morgan: 13:49
A while back, I saw this selection of, I'll call them demotivational pictures, you know that sometimes there is a little bit of a parody on the motivational posters, and it said, "The unaimed arrow never misses." If you think about people, they like to do the first part, but do you think there's a little bit of a fear of accountability if we actually go back and evaluate whether or not we performed against those measurements or not? Do you think that's some of the resistance?
Julie Assel: 14:14
I do because, again, you go back to this idea that, well, we've always done it this way, and nobody's ever complained, and we've always been funded before. But I believe that funding is getting tighter. I believe that funders are becoming more sophisticated, and you have to be able to measure it, and you've got to be able to prove it, not just have a heartwarming story.
Lucy Morgan: 14:39
Yes. I am in total agreement with you. I think the advent of the Data Act and where that's going to lead with artificial intelligence and, you know, doing more data analytics is going to transform from the world of the heartwarming stories into a much more data-driven return on investment approach, which is going to be quite shocking I think for a lot of us who've been in this for a while.
Well, I found that for many of us, it could be hard to get everyone on the same page about things, even though you believe that, yes, we're performing, and we're going to get those results. Let's talk to the folks listening who may be working at a nonprofit who already are stretched with a long to-do list. What is the first step they should take when they know the time has come to use a different approach? What's that small first step?
Julie Assel: 15:25
I would tell you not to be afraid of it. I would tell you not to be...don't look at the whole logic model. Take what you know, 30 minutes on a Friday afternoon, take what you know, and put it in a column. Don't try to tackle the whole logic model at once. I can joke all I want about, you know, doing a logic model in three hours, I mean, in truth, not a joke, but it's fun for me. But if this is something brand new to you, feel very comfortable in just saying, "Start with what I know," and then gradually, over time, start figuring out, you know, how that sits there.
I know a couple of people who are tackling this at a university, many, many, many projects, and they're like, "Where do I start?" They put it up on a whiteboard in their office, and they just have the general grid. And they take a program and each day, and they write just one aspect. They take like a Post-it note or something like that, something that they learned about a project, and they put it up there to kind of keep them in that mindset without being overwhelmed.
Spotlight: Real-life Results with Logic Models
Lucy Morgan: 16:32
That's great advice. We talk about results, and we talk about performance. Are there some results that you'd like to share from some real-life groups that you've worked with that have implemented these concepts and what they saw as a result of the implementation of strong logic models?
Julie Assel: 16:47
So, we've seen some of the most remarkable turnarounds in organizations that knew a lot but had never explained it to their grant writer. So I guess what I was talking about earlier, the evidence base to say, "Oh, wait, you need to know that?" "Yes, it helps me explain the full program." And so that's a key aspect. Another significant aspect is the components that you have of being able to show your results at the end.
For the people who get to the end and realize, "Wow, we know so much more than we thought we knew. We're being more successful than we thought we were," and being able to figure out that partnership that as you do the logic model, "Oh, this partnership was missing," and they added that partnership, and it dynamically changed their community. So being able to see what's missing and reach out, get that, and watching that result in your community that that makes with kids, or homeless, or the arts. I mean, it works with every type of program out there.
Lucy Morgan: 17:58
Do you find that people are almost a little surprised when they get to the end, and they actually accomplished what they set out to do?
Julie Assel: 18:04
I think that most people are surprised that funders care so much. Because with a high-quality logic model, it's super easy for a funder. It's a very quick visual representation of what you want to do. So instead of this fight, instead of this, "Oh, I've gotta do this attachment," last minute, doing it in that process allows that funder to be, "Oh, I get it. I get what you're trying to accomplish in all of these words that you've written. Here's this quick visual representation, and now I feel so much more comfortable with what you're doing. And I can see how you're getting from point A to point B, to point C, to point D, to point E."
The Last Word with Julie Assel and Lucy Morgan CPA
Lucy Morgan: 18:46
I really appreciate that insight and thinking about that from the standpoint of, you know, we're all competing for dollars with funders, and we're trying to make it easy for them to give us money. Well, one way to do that is to have a really high-quality logic model that makes it easy for them to visualize what your solution is as well. So I appreciate that. Well, Julie Assel, I wanted to give you the last word. Is there something I should have asked about this that I have not asked?
Julie Assel: 19:12
Does every program require a logic model? I would say that even the most simple program can be put into a logic model. It doesn't mean that you're going to have lots of detail underneath each column, but you should be able to get from the need to the goal all the way through the impact in your community. If you can't get all the way across, you're missing something. But it doesn't mean that you have to have 20 different things in of resources. It doesn't mean that you have to do ten different activities that you have to measure, and measure, and measure, and measure. So it doesn't have to be very long, but it's got to have everything going across.
Lucy Morgan: 19:57
Thank you for that insight. Well, if someone would like to find out more about you and Assel Grant Services, how should they get in touch with you?
Julie Assel: 20:04
Sure. They can email me at [email protected], or check out our website.
Lucy Morgan: 20:12
Thank you so much for participating in the "Grant Talks Podcast." Listeners, you can find all the episodes at granttalks.com. And, thank you for tuning in.
Outro: 20:22
To learn more about how MyFedTrainer.com makes grant management more manageable, visit MyFedTrainer.com. That's MyFedTrainere.com. You'll find all the Grant Talks episodes at GrantTalks.com. That's GrantTalks.com.
More About Julie Assel:
Julie Assel, GPC, is the President/CEO and a Senior Writer for Assel Grant Services. Julie has a varied background in grant writing including writing for school districts of varying sizes, universities, and non-profit organizations. So far, she has written awarded grants totaling more than $138 million since 2003.
Her expertise is in federal level grants with the Department of Education, National Science Foundation, National Institute of Health, and the Environmental Protection Agency. At the state level, she has successfully written to the Missouri Department of Elementary and Secondary Education, Department of Higher Education, and the Missouri Technology Commission among others.
Julie earned the Grant Professional Certification (GPC) in January 2010 from the Grant Professionals Certification Institute. The GPC is a certification program that measures an individual’s ability to provide quality grant-related services within an ethical framework. Julie currently serves as the President of the national Grant Professionals Certification Institute Board of Directors and is the past President of the Heart of America GPA Chapter in the Kansas City area and past facilitator for the GPA Consultants Special Interest Group.
She holds a Fundraising Certificate from the Midwest Center for Nonprofit Leadership, a service, and outreach unit of the Department of Public Affairs in the Henry W. Bloch School of Business and Public Administration at the University of Missouri Kansas City and a Bachelor’s Degree in Music Education from Luther College in Decorah, Iowa.
Prior to starting her own business in 2008, she worked as the Grant and Medical Writer/Quality Assurance Officer for Cardiovascular Imaging Technologies and the Coordinator of Grants and Special Projects for the Kansas City Missouri School District. She has also worked as the Grant Writer for KidsTLC (formerly TLC for Children and Families).
More About Lucy Morgan CPA:
Lucy M. Morgan is a CPA, MBA, GPA approved trainer, speaker, and author of 3 books including “Decoding Grant Management-The Ultimate Success Guide to the Federal Grant Regulations in 2 CFR Part 200.” As a leading authority on federal grant management for nonprofits, institutions of higher education and state, local and tribal governments she has written over 250 articles on grant management topics featured in LinkedIn, various publications and on the MyFedTrainer.com blog.
She is a sought-after presenter at national conferences sponsored by organizations such as the Grant Professional Association (GPA), National Grant Management Association (NGMA) and American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA).
Lucy is also a highly regarded trainer whose techniques and teaching style come from real-world experience. Having faced many of the same challenges her audiences have endured, Lucy understands that what looks good on paper may not always work in the real world. Because she has been there, she provides people of all professional backgrounds with practical tools to advance their careers and make a bigger difference in the world. She can be reached at [email protected].
>>Hear more about Lucy's story in Episode #004
More Resources for Grant Professionals
In this episode of Grant Talks, we talked about a subject that you may want to know more about:
- A logical approach to grants
So...as promised I want to share some resources that may help you on YOUR grant journey.
I was asked to present at a national conference in Washington on “Grants Management 101.”
And that got me thinking…
If I was to start over with federal grants management, what would be a logical approach to take about the requirements?
Because let’s face it, figuring out what is critical information vs. “nice to know” is the difference between “smooth sailing” and disaster with your grant.
So, I am sharing a “sneak peek” of my Grant Management Road Map!
(I hope this ‘roadmap’ will help you avoid some of the pitfalls when it comes to getting #grantready for federal funding.)
This handy road map covers critical elements of the grant management lifecycle like:
- 4 pre-award topics that are critical to effectively manage your grants starts before you even receive the award.
- 4 areas that build a firm foundation managing your grant successfully during the period of performance.
- 6 components for grant management that help you deliver on the program objectives and stay in compliance with the regulations and more…
These resources are FREE for you, and I hope that you will find them valuable on your grant journey.
Click here to download and share
P.S. If this is helpful, you might be interested in an article I wrote for LinkedIn on ways grant writers and grant managers can work together more effectively. Read more at: https://blog.myfedtrainer.com/three-secrets-grant-writers-need-to-know-about-grant-management/
