E-018 More Tackling Grant Compliance with Alexandra Rosenblatt and Lucy Morgan CPA
Episode Summary:
### Quick Episode Summary Grant Talks Podcast [#018]
*Intro ***.41***
* Fire Away Questions with Alexandra Rosenblatt and Lucy Morgan CPA***1:23***
* Tips for Staying in Compliance with Grants***2:23***
* Best Practices: The Role of an Attorney in Improving Grant Management***3:43***
* Transparency and Accountability: The Role of the OIG in Federal Grants***5:27***
* Grant Surprises: The Role of an Attorney in Fighting Unfair Decisions***7:47***
* Grant Management: The Hidden Requirements in Your Award Terms and Conditions***9:58***
* Grant Best Practices: Balancing Compliance and Risks***16:24***
* The Last Word with Alexandra Rosenblatt and Lucy Morgan CPA***18:19***
*Outro Audio GrantTalks Podcast with Lucy M. Morgan CPA ***19:00***
Be sure to subscribe to the show!
Click on the Player Below to Listen to the Podcast
Introducing Alexandra Rosenblatt from the Grants Counsel
Intro: 00:04
Welcome to the Grant Talks podcast with Lucy Morgan. Lucy is the CEO and director of MyFedTrainer.com a leading provider of grant management training and templates for federal grant recipients. This show is for grant professionals looking to gain confidence managing their grants. In an age of increasing complexity, you'll hear from leading professionals on the best practices surrounding grants, what's involved in successfully managing the grants lifecycle and how to make sure your grants are managed correctly. Now here's your host Lucy Morgan.
Lucy Morgan: 00:42
Welcome, everyone, to this continued conversation with Alexandra Rosenblatt. Alexandra is an attorney and the founder of the Grants Counsel, which provides training and legal services to non-profit organizations and local governments that receive federal grants. Alexandra works with federal grantees throughout the grant life cycle, drafting and reviewing policies and procedures, advising on compliance, and advocating for grantees in OIG investigations, agency appeals, federal court litigation, and other grant-related disputes. Alexandra also provides training on compliance and best practices. And I'm Lucy Morgan, your host for this session. So, welcome back, Alexandra.
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 01:21
Thank you for having me.
Fire Away Questions with Alexandra Rosenblatt and Lucy Morgan CPA
Lucy Morgan: 01:23
First of all, let's get started with a few fire-away questions to introduce you to our audience a little further. You mentioned in our last episode that you were a vegetarian for 10 years and what surprised you about your colleagues' and friends' reaction to you becoming a vegetarian?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 01:43
Well, I became a vegetarian in 8th grade, so I think the most common reaction was that it was a phase and probably wouldn't last but by the time 10 years later, my whole family actually had switched. So, I guess I was a good advocate for vegetarianism. We have all gone back to eating meat, so maybe not a lasting advocate.
Lucy Morgan: 02:07
And you, in our last episode, we were sharing some of your favorite barbecue places in Alabama. So, anyone who loves barbecue might have to check out those ones.
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 02:16
Absolutely. I have embraced barbecue wholeheartedly in my second meat-eating life here.
Tips for Staying in Compliance with Grants
Lucy Morgan: 02:23
Well, we're going to switch gears a little bit and talk about grants and grant compliance. What's the first thing that you want to share with people when you are advising them on this whole arena of grants compliance?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 02:35
I often will talk with people about developing a system to make sure that you are staying compliant and that you are documenting your compliance in a way that satisfies reviewers. And that system really looks at developing policies and procedures, making sure that folks are trained on them, keeping documentation through forms or notations of compliance, and then monitoring yourself to make sure that you are keeping compliant and that you are keeping the documentation that you are saying that you're keeping.
Lucy Morgan: 03:18
And when you talk about a system, the first thing that always comes to many people's minds is that that means software. So, I just want to reinforce that that a system is just a process to get a desired result and if our desired result is to stay in compliance and make sure that federal dollars keep flowing, that's not necessarily a software product, but it is a system to make sure that we get that desired result.
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 03:41
Exactly.
Best Practices: The Role of an Attorney in Improving Grant Management
Lucy Morgan: 03:43
Well, let's get into some of the nuts and bolts. In the last section, we talked about some common issues that grant recipients have when they accept and manage grants. Let's talk about how an attorney...actually the role of an attorney and how they advocate for grant recipients. What are some of the areas in which a grant recipient would need to have a legal advocate?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 04:05
So, we talk about the advisory role, which would be more advising on compliance, reviewing policies and procedures, training even from a legal perspective. On the advocacy role, you're typically looking at when something maybe appears that it may be going wrong or that there may be a finding. So, certainly, if a grantee is aware of a problem, there may be self-reporting obligations and that would be an area where you would involve an attorney. If there has been a finding during a review, whether that's programmatic or whether it's an audit, you may be involving an attorney to represent you if you think the finding is incorrect or also to help minimize the consequences of that finding or even correct the finding with a team.
There may be instances where the federal government has disallowed a cost. That is, they've said that you spent the money on something unallowable and you have to return that money. Often you have appeal rights for that kind of a decision. So, that's an area where an attorney would be involved if a grant is threatened with termination. Also, certainly, if you are a grantee that's been proposed for suspension or debarment, that's another area where an attorney would be able to represent.
Transparency and Accountability: The Role of the OIG in Federal Grants
Lucy Morgan: 05:27
And in our last episode, we talked a little bit about, you know, OIG and OIG findings and things like that. Could you just briefly describe who the OIG is, or who they are, and really what their role is within the world of federal grants?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 05:43
Sure. So, the OIG, or Office of the Inspector General, is an entity that combats fraud, waste, and abuse in the various federal agencies. And they would look not only at what federal grantees are doing but also, they may be looking at what the agency itself is doing. So, they really kind of play a lot of roles. But with regard to federal grantees that may take the form...they may be looking to investigate a federal grantee if there have been allegations of fraud or some type of criminal activity or even just mis-expenditure of funds that is evidence of some kind of fraudulent activity.
Lucy Morgan: 06:26
So, does the OIG come on the scenes because there's been a complaint, or is it just the luck of the draw, or is it really a combination of all different reasons?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 06:35
I think it's a combination. Certainly, if there has been a complaint, it may be forwarded to the OIG. That may be one reason that they might get involved with the grantee.
Lucy Morgan: 06:50
And I think so many times when a grant recipient has findings, especially in the old environment where there weren't a lot of consequences, you could have that suspension and debarment finding year after year and you maybe got the slap on the wrist, but nothing really bad happened. Do you think with the uniform guidance we're seeing more accountability actually being driven through consequences?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 07:13
Absolutely. And with the greater transparency among the federal agencies about the performance of a grantee and their management capacity and that sort of thing, it certainly has the potential to have a more severe consequence. And of course, with the suspension or debarment, you really are faced with losing your livelihood essentially if you're primarily funded by federal grants and you may also lose state grants if you have a suspension or debarment.
Grant Surprises: The Role of an Attorney in Fighting Unfair Decisions
Lucy Morgan: 07:47
That's a good point. What are some of the things that grant recipients can do to increase their chances of successfully fighting what they may perceive as an unfair decision by a federal agency?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 07:59
So, certainly involving an attorney sooner rather than later. Often with appeals, there are time deadlines, strict time deadlines that need to be followed, so this is not an area where you have a lot of time to waste. So, calling an attorney who can come in and make sure that you appeal things within the deadlines and that also can take a look at the documentation, can interview witnesses as close to the incident. It seems inevitable that the main person we need to talk to has left sometimes on bad terms or nobody knows where they are and they're hard to get in touch with. So, really, the sooner that an attorney can come in and kind of get the lay of the land, gather the needed documentation, talk with witnesses, and then make sure that we're meeting our deadlines so that we can protect the rights of the federal grantee to appeal the decision is better.
Lucy Morgan: 08:56
And I'm going to put in a little plug here just because I work more on the finance and audit and the accounting side of things that really I think grant recipients should consider it anytime there's a finding because as soon as you've put that management response in place, you've now made...it's like having a policies and procedures that are too stringent. You've now said, "This is what the issue is," and maybe you would benefit from having an advocate on the legal side to say, "You're answering questions that aren't even being asked," before you put that management response together.
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 09:28
Absolutely. And the same with programmatic finding. Sometimes people will go overboard in response and they have created or they've promised, over-promised to the federal government a corrective action plan that really is impossible to implement and certainly within the timelines that are needed for correction. So, involving somebody who can just keep an eye on things and can make sure that you're preserving the record if it needs to be appealed can be helpful.
Grant Management: The Hidden Requirements in Your Award Terms and Conditions
Lucy Morgan: 09:58
Well, sometimes I feel like a broken record because when I present or when I do training, a lot of times I'll get questions and I'll give them the general rule. But then I'll say, "But read your terms and conditions," because there are often things in those terms and conditions that are different than even the uniform guidance is and sometimes is even different than agency policy. I feel like I'm a broken record in saying that. And I've even started saying, "Read that notice of funding opportunity," because sometimes people have had grants for many years not realizing this is the year that the funder decided to say, "Hey, you have to limit your administrative costs. You have to limit your spending on all these areas." Why do you think something's spelled out in awards, terms, and conditions, are a surprise to the program folks of what they just signed up for?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 10:46
I think that we ask a lot of program folks, a lot of them are extremely busy and overworked and they're probably staying in their lane and kind of putting blinders on and somebody else is taking care of that. So, I think that's why this cross-training is helpful so that everybody's aware of the other pieces of the organization, the terms, and conditions that apply, the regulations that apply. I also encourage people to have a toolbox that includes the statute under which they've received their federal grant, the regulations, which would include the implementing regulations for the statute and the uniform guidance and anything else that's applicable and also the agency guidance.
Whether there's program instructions or information memoranda or frequently asked questions, to have that and to refer to them often because even I have worked with federal grants, when I get a question, I rarely just answer it. I will often pull out my regulations, flip to the provision that's important, reread it. That's what attorneys do. We are always reading the statute and the regulations because it is amazing how you may think you remember it, but when you're presented with a question that just changes the lens slightly when you reread that provision, you see it in a whole new light and you may come up with a different answer.
Another thing that I often see with grantees, both new and those who have had the grants for a long time, is that these myths emerge and people will say, "This is the rule, this is how it's always been done." And other people will, "Well, they've had the grants for a long time and this is how they do it, so this is how I'm going to do it." But you can't trace it back to anywhere. It just becomes kind of an urban legend in the grant world and often returning to the regulation or statute is helpful to make sure that that urban legend is based on something and that you're not doing anything to your peril based on rumor.
Lucy Morgan: 13:01
That makes a good point, and especially when you're talking about this cross-training between the different functional areas. I, of course, think of that from the standpoint of how does finance interact with the program and vice versa? One of the things that I don't think has really been talked about a lot, and since you're an attorney and I can put you on the spot on this, is whether it's a legal department or a legal advocate have a role in leadership to communicate what those terms and conditions and what those statutes say to the program folks. Because maybe if you're working in a program, you're thinking, well, I'm a specialist in research, or I'm a specialist in this, I'm not an attorney. So, how am I supposed to know what this says?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 13:44
Right. And I think those non-profit organizations or grantees who are fortunate enough to have a general counsel or in-house legal, that that is a very important role to emphasize the importance, or this could even be a compliance officer to emphasize the importance of compliance and the rationale underlying the rules. Because I think you're going to get better compliance if people understand why they have to do it. So, it's not just I have to fill out this form because the fiscal department is making me fill it out. Instead, it's this is the reason that we're required to do it and this is how it will help us keep our grant money.
So, kind of emphasizing that, I think you're going to get more effective and more willing compliance. And it also may make you more popular in the workplace than if it seems like you're creating busywork for people because I think I understand the frustration with...like I mentioned, I work a lot with Headstart programs. You've got teachers, their primary focus, their passion for being there is the children that they're working with, it is not filling out forms that are fiscal in nature or something else. But helping them understand that the program can't exist without that piece and that layer of safeguarding federal funds, I think it is important to get them to work with you a little bit better.
Lucy Morgan: 15:18
Yeah. And I think that whole area of compliance, if we don't know why we're doing things...as a CPA, I remember having that epiphany when I was learning to do income taxes and going, if I just don't ask why I have to add line 12 to line 14, I'll be happier. And there's that you want to know why. And I think that attitude is not well served in the grants community because it's not just a matter of filling out the form for the form, but to have a little background in how that came about. Why we can't have food at a conference if it's sponsored by HHS is because of all these past abuses, and so now we're kind of paying the price. But to have a little bit more background, I think, will bring people on board faster of why we have to do some of these things that may feel a little burdensome.
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 16:03
Absolutely. And you're going to catch things more if you understand the rationale for the rule because then you see something, you know in your gut that doesn't seem right. I need to raise the issue versus if you just know the bright-line rule, then you're not going to have that sense for when you need to raise the issue and bring somebody else in.
Grant Best Practices: Balancing Compliance and Risks
Lucy Morgan: 16:24
That's a good point. Well, what do you think is the best takeaway for someone who wants to improve compliance at their organization and they also want to reduce the risk of maybe some legal jeopardy for mismanagement of their grants?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 16:37
I think that really taking compliance seriously, making sure that you have the infrastructure in place or the system in place for compliance, making sure that everyone understands that compliance is part of their job responsibilities regardless of what their role is within the organization, and not running away from those problems. If there's a problem, deal with it. Get the help that you need, whether that's in-house or outside help and handle the problem before it becomes something that threatens your organization.
Lucy Morgan: 17:14
Well, I want to reiterate that that is some great advice. Again, one of the things that I think an attorney brings into some of the areas of compliance is to help you do some of that problem-solving. I don't think any agency wants you to just come into their office with your hair on fire going, "Oh my gosh, we don't know what to do." You're always going to get a better response if you at least have a plan to present to them that they may want to tweak than to just go, "Here's this problem and we don't know what to do." Think about having some solutions.
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 17:44
Absolutely. And we say that a lot, certainly with self-reporting, any type of problem if you can present it with...often I'll have people present it with the system, this is our system and this was what we had in place to deal with it. And this is our plan for dealing with it. We're retraining, we're putting in additional procedures or adding extra monitoring to make sure that this doesn't happen again. All of that is important to present that competence and build trust with your funders.
The Last Word with Alexandra Rosenblatt and Lucy Morgan CPA
Lucy Morgan: 18:19
Well, I want to thank you again and I want to give you that last word. Are there any final words of advice that you would like to impart to our listeners?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 18:26
I think that's it.
Lucy Morgan: 18:28
We've covered broad strokes here. If someone would like to find out more about you, how should they get in touch?
Alexandra Rosenblatt: 18:35
I can be reached by email at [email protected].
Lucy Morgan: 18:47
Thank you so much, Alexandra, for participating in this "Grants Talks" podcast. Listeners, if you'd like to find all the episodes, you can go to GrantTalks.com, and thank you very much for tuning in.
Outro Audio GrantTalks Podcast with Lucy M. Morgan CPA
Outro: 19:00
To learn more about how MyFedTrainer.com makes grant management more manageable, visit MyFedTrainer.com. That's MyFedTrainere.com. You'll find all the Grant Talks episodes at GrantTalks.com. That's GrantTalks.com.
More About Alexandra Rosenblatt, Esq.:
Alexandra Rosenblatt, Esq. is the founder of Grants Counsel, which provides training and legal services to nonprofit organizations and local governments that receive federal grants. Alexandra works with federal grantees throughout the grant lifecycle: drafting and reviewing policies and procedures, advising on compliance, and advocating for grantees in OIG investigations, agency appeals, federal court litigation, and other grant-related disputes. Alexandra also provides training on compliance and best practices.
More About Lucy Morgan CPA:
Lucy M. Morgan is a CPA, MBA, GPA approved trainer, speaker, and author of 3 books including “Decoding Grant Management-The Ultimate Success Guide to the Federal Grant Regulations in 2 CFR Part 200.” As a leading authority on federal grant management for nonprofits, institutions of higher education and state, local and tribal governments she has written over 250 articles on grant management topics featured in LinkedIn, various publications and on the MyFedTrainer.com blog.
She is a sought-after presenter at national conferences sponsored by organizations such as the Grant Professional Association (GPA), National Grant Management Association (NGMA) and American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA).
Lucy is also a highly regarded trainer whose techniques and teaching style come from real-world experience. Having faced many of the same challenges her audiences have endured, Lucy understands that what looks good on paper may not always work in the real world. Because she has been there, she provides people of all professional backgrounds with practical tools to advance their careers and make a bigger difference in the world. She can be reached at [email protected].
>>Hear more about Lucy's story in Episode #004
More Resources for Grant Professionals
Thanks for checking out the Grant Talks podcast!
In this episode of Grant Talks, we talked about a subject that you may want to know more about:
So...as promised I want to share some resources that may help you on YOUR grant journey.
Did you know audit findings for inadequate documentation of suspension and debarment are one of the most common types of audit findings?
And that makes me sad! ☹
Because it’s so easy to stay in compliance if you just follow these simple steps.
That’s why I put together this simple-to-follow infographic on how and when to check for suspension and debarment so that you can avoid costly audit findings.
It’s a quick and easy visual reminder about how and when to check for suspension and debarment of your contractors, key employees, and subrecipients.
Remember, NO federal funds can flow to people or organizations on the excluded parties list. And if they do, you are on the hook to pay that money back to the federal agency.
Here's a sample:
- Where to check
- When to check
- How to adequately document that you checked
- I’ll even share the right website to visit to get to the excluded parties list database. (Sometimes it seems like a game of hide-and-seek to get to the correct site!)
These resources are FREE for you, and I hope that you will find them valuable on your grant journey.
Click here to download and share
P.S. If you want to read more about how to avoid common types of audit findings, check out my article at https://blog.myfedtrainer.com/13-ways-to-keep-grant-funds-flowing/
