E-002 Tips for Surviving an OIG Audit Your First Day on the Job - with Amanda Day and Lucy Morgan
Episode Summary: 002 Grant Talks Podcast
### Quick Episode Summary Grant Talks Podcast [#002]
*Introduction ***.41***
* Fire Away Questions Amanda Day GPC and Lucy Morgan CPA ***1.19***
* A True Story About an OIG Audit Finding ***3:05***
* How an OIG Audit Different from a Single Audit ***5:30***
* Training Reduces Risk with Federal Grants***5:30***
* What Types of Things Will Trigger an OIG Audit ***9:26***
* Tips: When the OIG Comes to Visit ***11:45***
* The Last Word with Amanda Day GPC and Lucy Morgan CPA***11:45***
*Outro Audio GrantTalks Podcast with Lucy M. Morgan CPA ***14:35***
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- Listen to Lucy’s Welcome Message in Episode 001
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Intro: 00:00
Welcome to the Grant Talks podcast with Lucy Morgan. Lucy is the CEO and director of MyFedTrainer.com a leading provider of grant management training and templates for federal grant recipients. This show is for grant professionals looking to gain confidence in managing their grants, in an age of increasing complexity. You'll hear from leading professionals on the best practices surrounding grants, what's involved in successfully managing the grants lifecycle and how to make sure your grants are managed correctly. Now here's your host, Lucy Morgan.
Introduction: Amanda Day GPC and Lucy Morgan CPA
Lucy Morgan CPA: 00:41
Welcome everyone to this conversation with Amanda Day GPC. Amanda is a grant writing USA trainer and the cohost of Fundraising Hay Day, a podcast about grants. She is the vice president of the Grant Professional Association (GPA) and previously served on the Grant Professional Certification Institute board. I'm Lucy Morgan, your host for this session. Welcome, Amanda.
Amanda Day GPC: 01:04
Thanks so much for having me, Lucy. Excited to be here.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 01:08
And I also understand you're a wife and a mom and a traveler, with six states left to visit to complete your tour of the US as well as a Georgia Bulldogs fan.
Amanda Day GPC: 01:18 Yes ma'am.
Fire Away Questions with Amanda Day GPA
Lucy Morgan CPA: 01:19
So I have a few “fire away” questions for you to introduce you to our audience. Are you ready?
Amanda Day GPC: 01:24
I think so.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 01:24
Alright! What is your go-to order at your favorite hometown restaurant?
Amanda Day GPC: 01:31
Okay. I'm going to have to admit that my kids hate this, but I love Mexican food and so any, and it doesn't matter what kind, anything Mexican. Both my kids are all the chicken tenders and, so they hate when mom gets to choose where we're going. But that's my favorite.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 01:45
Do you have a favorite style of Mexican or is it any?
Amanda Day GPC: 01:49
I really appreciate when I get to go to Texas. It's really good down there, much better than Georgia., but, yeah, I'm really not picking chips and salsa. Make me happy.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 01:59
All right, now I have to ask you, as someone with kids, how have you gone to that many states as a mom?
Amanda Day GPC: 02:08
Well, two reasons. First of all, I am an army brat, so I have lived a bunch of places in my life and my parents' theory was if we could drive, we were going. So, I got to see many states as a child as well as even lived in Germany for a while. So I've got some European countries thrown in there too. , but then now as with my job with GrantWritingUSA, we travel and we teach in all 50 states and I was able to give them my list of where I had not been and they've helped me whittle that down and yeah, just have six states left to go.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 02:37
That's awesome. What are you curious about right now?
Amanda Day GPC: 02:40
Everything really. I think right now, this is my first National Grant Management Association (NGMA) conference, so I'm just curious to see how it compares. I've been involved with the Grant Professionals Association and serve on their board and have been going to their conference pretty religiously since 2005 so I'm excited to meet some new grant folks, and just see more on the management side of things, how things work. So, I'm excited for that.
Live from the NGMA Conference – A True Story About an OIG Audit Finding
Lucy Morgan CPA: 03:05
As someone who attends both conferences, it's a very different audience in many ways, but there is a lot of crossovers so it still feels like family, every time I come. Amanda, your bio said you've been in grants and contract management for over 17 years and your presentation at NGMA is called "Surviving an OIG audit Your First Day on the Job-A True Story". How did you find yourself in this position and when did it happen in your 17-year grant timeframe?
Amanda Day GPC: 03:36
I had only been in the grants field for two years, so at that case, really very much a newbie. And how I found myself in that position. When I interviewed for the job, nobody told me about this nasty audit that they had just had. And in fact, two of their findings had to do with reporting not being done well, if at all. And so, the way they were closing out those findings with OIG was creating a grants position and hiring someone who was going to keep that from happening again. But yet they did not explain that to me until literally my first day on the job.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 04:10
Wow. Just wow.
Amanda Day GPC: 04:12
Exactly.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 04:14
What was the most surprising thing about the situation that you found yourself in?
Amanda Day GPC: 04:18
Again, going back to that, I had no idea and I kid you not. I am on my very first day I got there and, I had spent my time in HR in the morning, had met everybody, had gotten a tour of the facility and, and then the mayor and the city manager and several department heads took me to lunch and everybody was so lovely and they really were, they were a lovely group. I ended up working there for quite a long time. But when I got back to my office after lunch, all of a sudden, these people just started walking into my office, dropping boxes at my feet and I'm like, "Hey, what's up? What y'all doing?" And they were like, "Yeah, there was this audit and we're so glad you're here because we still have five findings. Congratulations and holler if you need anything." And so, I had about four or five boxes of stuff just to go through, just to even get my head around what had happened, what they still had to clean up. It was a little scary, but it was also a very good learning experience for me. And part of why they did explain to me I was their first grants administrator. Part of why they wanted me to come in was to create some policies and procedures and now I was like, "Oh, now I get why that was really important to them because they had not done a very good job of that before I had arrived."
Lucy Morgan CPA: 05:25
Talk about jumping into the deep end of the pool!
Amanda Day GPC: 05:28
Exactly.
How an OIG Audit Differs from a Single Audit
Lucy Morgan CPA: 05:30
Well for someone who's not familiar with the office of Inspector General or the OIG for the various federal agencies, how has the request or examination from the OIG different than just the normal annual audit or the single audit with your auditors?
Amanda Day GPC: 05:45
Well, I think the biggest thing is, your annual audit, it happens every year. So, it's just, it's a normal thing. We always prepare for it hopefully. And, they will be, have findings here and there, but typically, as long as they're not anything horrible, life moves on, you get corrective action in place and hopefully don't make the same mistake twice. But when the OIG or the Office of the Inspector General shows up, that's your funder, that's the federal folks, that's like the IRS deciding, "Hey, we're going to audit your taxes this year." And so, it's certainly a little scarier. Certainly, it could have bigger consequences., money might need to be paid back. They could decide that you've messed up so poorly that you can't have any funds for five, 10, whatever years. So, there's just a lot more. I mean, there's always something riding, but it's just, it's a bigger deal…kind of like being called to the principal's office is what I felt like for sure.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 06:30
The big mean principal!
Amanda Day GPC: 06:32
Exactly.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 06:33
So I know that once the OIG report comes out, you can look that up online. I know I like to spend a lot of time, looking at OIG reports and writing case studies. I've been doing that for years. So, set us up. Give us some background on the gory details. What happened when the OIG came to visit?
Amanda Day GPC: 06:51
Well, of course, I wasn't there when they actually arrived, so I missed that portion of the process. , but basically from my understanding of reading and talking to folks is that, they just, up until I had arrived on the scene, every department had kind of applied for their own stuff in finance, had tried to get a handle on things, but it was all kind of a little willy-nilly because plenty of people were as Finance would tell me, people are going rogue, they're applying for things, they're not telling us about it, money showing up, we don't know where it goes. And the biggest thing was no one was really trained to know what they were doing. And I don't think anybody was trying to do things wrong, but it was just kind of like someone would be the manager for a while at the police department. They get promoted or move on and then suddenly they look around and go, "Oh, hey you Officer Smith, you're on your grant person. "And they're kind of like, "Okay." And so, it's just the biggest thing for me, was that files were not complete. Things were kind of done, half done, not half done. And so, so I think when they came it was just, they found what a hot mess everything was.
Training Reduces Risk with Federal Grants
Lucy Morgan CPA: 07:51
Yeah. And, it's so surprising to me when you think about how the federal government for so many years, really, until the Uniform Guidance had this attitude of just give people money and then we'll come in later and tell you did it all wrong as opposed to really pushing that aspect of getting people trained to know what the heck they're doing with all those federal dollars.
Amanda Day GPC: 08:12
Very true. Because I'll tell you, I've had a few state agencies I've gotten funding from that have finally caught on about training and there've been many, things I've gotten training on that I'm like, man, 10 years ago this would have been fantastic. It's still fantastic now, but I wish I had known then what I know now. And so, yeah, it would be nice if there was some sort of set classes that every, everyone who wanted to get money, it's not just you have to have a DUNS number, but somebody in your organization needs to go to this training just to kind of get your feet wet.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 08:41
So how did you feel when you realize the depth of what you had stepped into there at that organization?
Amanda Day GPC: 08:47
I was a little sick to my stomach at first, especially when I realized that they expected me to come in and kind of save the day. But I was very fortunate, I worked for a mayor and a city manager who were very kind, understanding folks. And I was able to have some frank conversations with him at the beginning, that I'm going to find what I'm going to find and if we did things the right way and I can prove it, absolutely I'm going to do that. But if I find we've done things wrong, we will be paying the money back and there's just no way around it. And they were very understanding and said, “Yep, we fully agree we want to do this the right way." So, it could have been a lot worse. I certainly wouldn't have stayed there; I don't think if that hadn't had been their response to what I was telling them.
What Types of Things Trigger an OIG Audit?
Lucy Morgan CPA: 09:26
So what were some of the root causes of the various findings, if you can share some of those maybe lessons learned for someone else?
Amanda Day GPC: 09:33
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think one of the biggest things is just not the folks not quite understanding what they can and can't do with grants. I think a lot of times people get money, and I know this is true because I've had program officers tell me, they're like, "Well it's our money. We can do whatever we need to do with it." So, they were paying officers more than they were allowed for the grant. It was one of the issues. So, some money did end up having to be paid back for that. And I, again, it wasn't anybody trying to pay somebody like 80,000 instead of 30,000. It was just a little bit here and there. But when you start multiplying it by about 15 officers, suddenly that starts to add up to quite a bit. And I think a big thing too, is just lack of documentation. People not fully understanding. You've got to, document every issue, every, every little thing. Because if you don't, then you can't really prove what you did or didn't do.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 10:21
And it does seem like if you can't document it properly, they don't just go, "Well you got the "E" for effort." It's like, they just say “No, we're going to, just first we question, then we disallow."
Amanda Day GPC: 10:33
I remember this had nothing to do with this grant. It was a different program, a construction project. It was my very first time dealing with having to check for the suspension and debarment list. Right? So, we get our contractor, I go and look and sure enough, they're good to go. We're allowed to hire him. So, we hired him, we do the job. Our annual auditors came in and they're like, "Well, where's your suspension and debarment check?" And I'm like, “I did it." And they're like, "But how do we know you did it.?" I'm like, "Girl Scouts honor? I don't know what to tell you." And they're like, "You didn't print anything." I'm like, "I will now. "And that's now, now I do that every time. But sometimes, sometimes it is a learning curve, but some mistakes that that was not a huge mistake because I did check and we didn't hire somebody bad. But yes, some of those not documenting can really come back to bite you.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 11:16
Yeah. I think suspension and debarment was the first introduction to repeat year findings that I had as a grant manager. And it was very similar. It wasn't that it wasn't being done, but it was not being documented. People weren't doing that screenshot. Now I noticed now that SAM.gov now has a nice little .pdf. So, you don't even have to do it as a screenshot. So, it's even easier than it ever was before. There's no good reason for anyone to ever have that as a finding.
Amanda Day GPC: 11:43
This is true.
Tips: When the OIG Comes to Visit - A Federal Grant Recipient Perspective
Lucy Morgan CPA: 11:44
So looking back, what advice would you give someone who found themselves in a similar situation? They just heard the OIG is coming to visit and they probably are having that same kind of feeling in the pit of their stomach. What advice would you give them?
Amanda Day GPC: 11:59
Oh, I will tell you, anytime I teach a great management class, I always share this story because I'm like, if you have not had an experience with the OIG yet, if you stay in this business long enough, you probably will at some point. It's just going to happen. So, my advice always is, first of all, they're not as scary as, we make them out to be. Just take a deep breath. And the nice thing, which I did not realize until working with them is, yes you have findings and yes, they can seem horrible, but they work with you on the back end to get those corrective action plans into place. And not only do they work with you, but they will assign you a person who will be your contact and really does walk you through. So, when I called in and got my OIG contact assigned, it was a gentleman, I've never met him, but, Frank Mathers, if you happen to be listening, you are my contact. You were a fabulous help. And he also sounded like Barry White. So, I did not complain about having to call him and work through some of my issues.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 12:54
So I wonder if we can now ask for the guy from OIG who sounds like Barry White and make a request for your OIG contact person.
Amanda Day GPC: 13:02
Exactly.
The Last Word with Amanda Day GPC and Lucy Morgan CPA
Lucy Morgan CPA: 13:04
Oh, that's a great story. Thank you so much, Amanda. I'd like to give you the last word. Is there anything I should have asked but didn't?
Amanda Day GPC: 13:12
I'm trying to think. I think we covered some of the good stuff there. So again, my advice just, it stinks when they come, especially if it was on your watch, but try to take it as a lesson learned. My thing with grant management, now there are so many more classes than there used to be., back when this was happening, it was about 2004 when I was on the back end of that audit. There really weren't a lot of classes out there. And so, my goal was to read everything I can get my hands on and to never make the same mistake twice. And so, kind of that's how my thought was with the OIG. Okay. We did some bad stuff, but we will not do these same things again. We maybe do something new next time, but it's, it's a learning process.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 13:51
Well, thank you for that insight. If someone would like to find out more about you, how should they get in touch?
Amanda Day GPC: 13:56
The best way to reach me is through email and you can find me at [email protected]
Lucy Morgan CPA: 14:06
And where can they find out more about the Fundraising Hay Day podcast?
Amanda Day GPC: 14:09
Well, you can find our podcast just about anywhere. You can download your podcast on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher. You can also find us on our website, which is www.FundraisingHayDay.com and that's h -a -y-d- a-y and we also are on Twitter @fundinghayday.
Lucy Morgan CPA: 14:29
Well, thank you so much for participating in the GrantTalks podcast! Listeners, you can find all the episodes at GrantTalks.com. And thank you for tuning in.
Outro: 14:35
To learn more about how MyFedTrainer.com makes grant management more manageable, visit MyFedTrainer.com. That's MyFedTrainer.com. You'll find all the GrantTalks episodes at GrantTalks.com. That's GrantTalks.com.
More About Amanda Day GPC
Amanda Day, GPC, is a national trainer for Grant Writing USA and a grant consultant. With 18 years in the grant field, she specializes in federal and state funding for local governments. She is the co-host of the Fundraising HayDay Podcast with fellow Grant Professional Association Board Member Kimberly Hays de Muga. Follow her on twitter @wholewheatgirl and @fundinghayday. The Funding HayDay Podcast episodes can be found on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, Stitcher, and www.fundraisinghayday.com.
More About Lucy Morgan
Lucy M. Morgan is a CPA, MBA, GPA approved trainer, speaker, and author of 3 books including “Decoding Grant Management-The Ultimate Success Guide to the Federal Grant Regulations in 2 CFR Part 200.” As a leading authority on federal grant management for nonprofits, institutions of higher education and state, local and tribal governments she has written over 250 articles on grant management topics featured in LinkedIn, various publications and on the MyFedTrainer.com blog.
She is a sought-after presenter at national conferences sponsored by organizations such as the Grant Professional Association (GPA), National Grant Management Association (NGMA) and American Institute of Certified Public Accountants (AICPA).
Lucy is also a highly regarded trainer whose techniques and teaching style come from real-world experience. Having faced many of the same challenges her audiences have endured, Lucy understands that what looks good on paper may not always work in the real world. Because she has been there, she provides people of all professional backgrounds with practical tools to advance their careers and make a bigger difference in the world. She can be reached at [email protected].
- You can hear more about Lucy's journey into grant management in Episode 004
More Resources for Federal Grants
Thanks for checking out the Grant Talks podcast!
In this episode of Grant Talks, we talked about a subject that you may want to know more about, so….as promised, I want to share some resources that may help you on YOUR grant journey.
Click below to download a copy of:
Did you know audit findings for inadequate documentation of suspension and debarment are one of the most common types of audit findings?
And that makes me sad! ☹
Because it’s so easy to stay in compliance if you just follow these simple steps.
That’s why I put together this simple-to-follow infographic on how and when to check for suspension and debarment so that you can avoid costly audit findings.
Click here to download the infographic
It’s a quick and easy visual reminder about how and when to check for suspension and debarment of your contractors, key employees, and subrecipients.
Remember, NO federal funds can flow to people or organizations on the excluded parties list. And if they do, you are on the hook to pay that money back to the federal agency.
Here's a sample of what’s included:
- Where to check
- When to check
- How to adequately document that you checked
- I’ll even share the right website to visit to get to the excluded parties list database. (Sometimes it seems like a game of hide-and-seek to get to the correct site!)
These resources are FREE for you, and I hope that you will find them valuable on your grant journey.
All the best,
Lucy
P.S. If you want to read more about how to avoid common types of audit findings, check out my article at https://blog.myfedtrainer.com/13-ways-to-keep-grant-funds-flowing/
Thanks again for listening in!
